Paphos People

Dear All,

The following article appeared in the Mail on Sunday:

Page 67 Financial Section Mail on Sunday – 30th March 2008.

UK PENSIONERS ABROAD FACE FUEL CASH THREAT

By Tom McGhie.

The Government is launching a fresh attempt to block winter fuel payments to thousands of pensioners who have retired abroad.

Home Office Minister Mike O’Brien has sought legal advice to find a way around EU laws that allow Britons who have retired to 29 European countries to claim the payment.

It is worth £200 a year to British pensioners - £300 for those aged over 80.

New figures from the Department for Works and Pensions show the Government last year spent almost £8 million on fuel payments to 48,000 older Britons living abroad, most in the warmer countries of Spain, Greece and Cyprus.

In Spain, up to 24,600 pensioners, most of whom live in the balmy Costas, picked up fuel payments totalling £4 million.

O’Brien told Financial Mail: ‘It is hard to get round European Community Law. This problem has been with us since 2001. But I have not given up trying and I have asked our lawyers once again to have a look at this problem.’

The latest move comes as soaring energy prices look like wiping out the value of winter fuel payments for pensioners in the UK.

The Chancellor, Alistair Darling, announced in the Budget that over-60’s would get an increase in their fuel payment of £50 while over-80’s would get an extra £100.

Unquote.

This morning I emailed Mike O'Brien, the minister concerned as follows:


Quote:

Dear Mr O’Brien,

I read with dismay in yesterdays, March 30th, Sunday Mail, an article regarding your determination to legally pursue the termination of the Winter Fuel Allowance to British pensioners living overseas; have you really thought this through?

As Minister for Works & Pensions you will no doubt fully appreciate that this allowance is payable to all UK pensioners who received it when residing in the UK which can also be claimed when they move to another EU country.

It is an allowance just like those that all British Members of Parliament are entitled to receive; and for certain MP’s their outrageous claims are the subject of much adverse comment in the British newspapers, dare I mention Mr Speaker! I did notice from the Web Site, http://www.theyworkforyou.com, that you are not shy in claiming your entitlements.

I hope you appreciate that the winters in Cyprus, where I have been residing for the last six years, are also very cold: many of us have central heating installed. We also, unlike the UK, have extremely hot weather every summer requiring us to use air conditioning. So we have two extremes of weather to pay for; a counter claim for ‘air conditioning’ allowance perhaps?

Many British pensioners on limited incomes deliberately moved to countries like Cyprus and Spain where the cost of living is lower, apart from gas, oil and electricity for which the costs are much the same as in the UK. So perhaps a little research here first.

We are only too well aware that as permanent residents of other countries we are no longer ‘voting fodder’ for British MP’s. Remember Mr O’Brien we are still influencers and we still have children and relatives who do have the vote in the UK.

However, we take comfort that your cause will probably never come to fruition for the following reasons:

· Brussels will not be very interested in hearing such a ‘petty’ case – you will probably look a complete fool to other EU ministers.

· Given the EU’s heavy-handed bureaucracy, it will take years to be heard, if it’s ever heard at all – you are wasting government time and money.

· With the prospect of a general election in the near future, Gordon Brown, not the publics favourite prime minister given his record on pensions, will be heavily defeated and your efforts will come to naught, but the stigma of the man who tried to cut the Winter Allowance for overseas pensioners will remain with you forever.

You would be better advised to divert your department’s efforts into formulating a common equitable pension policy for all the EU’s elderly. With the UK having one of the lowest pensions in the EU this would be a real vote winner.

Yours sincerely,

Unquote.

Should you also wish to email the dear minister, his email address is:

obrienm@parliament.uk

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Clive of Payia

I thought you meant the Cypriot winter fuel allowance for those of us living up in the gods.

That came in very useful this year.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

My Father paid into the welfare state; I started paying in !958, my great uncle (born 1878) never paid in but our contribution paid for him and millions of others.
After paying in for 50 years I'm sick of constantly hearing from todays polititions how much of a drain on the economy senior citizens are.
If the government would like to give me and my Wife back the contributions along with the interest that would be accrued over all of those years we would certainly get more than £164 per week that the sate pension gives us.
The winter fuel allowance is a right that has been well paid for down the years.
40% of the UK population are older people it's about time they started using their vote in a unified manner.

Gets down off soap box with the aid kitchen ladders.

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John S

I couldn't agree more John

If foreign workers in the UK can claim child benefit for children not even living in UK, then to stop heating allowances for pensioners living abroad would be a complete travesty.

Julie x

Hi John,
Is that amount for both of you?

Jan

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ALWAYS MOVE FORWARD

Yes it is, luckily for us my BT Pension for just over half of those 50 years is better than my 50 year state pension.

I suppose somebody has to pay for the benefits that the East europeans get.

I'm just praying that Mgabe wins in Zimbabwe, if he doesn't there'll be so many scores to settle there that the UK will be awash with Asylum seekers from Zimbabwe.

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John S

Whilst I am in agreement with every word you have written John, I am in a state of flux about whether a person should receive this allowance if he/she moves out ot the UK. Yes they should, if people who are receiving child benefit for children not living in the UK. But where my ambivilence comes in is that we received a winter fuel allowance from the Cypriot system, and we have only been paying into it for less than two years. So when we are pensionable would it be right to receive the Cypriot handout plus the UK one?

I have listened to retired ex-pats here in Cyprus complain because they only received half of what Phil and I received.

They can't have it both ways. Can they?

No wish to start a war over this - I am genuinely confused as to how to think about it.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

I agree John, why shouldn't we get it. Why do people who have never paid a penny in their lives get handouts, yet cos we move out of the country we are not suppose to be entitled.

We claim nothing from anywhere else yet we have paid into the U.K. for years.

At the end of day, although we live in Cyprus, we still need heating !!

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Molly

Treat others as you want to be treated

Verity,
The fuel allowance is an integral part of the UK pension as far as I am concerned. Like you I am not getting a pension yet due to our youth but when I do reach pensionable age and assuming this bunch have not given the whole lot of the nation's wealth away I for one will expect to get the fuel allowance every winter as is my (paid for all these years) right.
You know of course the MP's favourite farewell to each other:
"Boy, I'd hate to have to go out and live under those laws we passed today"
Little Darlings !!!!
Paul

I do agree. But my confusion is that there is a fuel allowance paid in Cyprus. If I get that, should I also expect the UK one? Is that fair on the people who have paid into the Cypriot system for years and years to have "their" money given to foreigners? That is what some Brits feel should be their right. I have a problem with that.

Just because there is an allowance is it right that everyone should get it, even when some people don't really need it financially or otherwise? If it is taken away it should be given to the elderly as an increase in their winter fuel allowance to enable them to keep warm in the UK climate.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

Hi Verity, in principal I agree which much of what you say but it has to be a level playing field, many families receive 'Family Allowance yet they aren't in the low income financial group that it was originaly intended for, also there is the issue of EEC citizens getting allowances for offspring who have never set foot in the UK.

For many years it has been a bone of contention with UK citizens as to how aliens were allowed access to the UK benefit system.

Now it seems someone in government has realised that for once indigenous UK citizens are getting a benefit by right, but this only applies to those who were already getting the benefit before they left the UK; in other words people who like me and my Wife have left (29th April) the UK after a working lifetime of paying their contributions.

In Cyprus the winter allowance is paid to all (those who live above a certain altitude as far as I know) and not just those who it genuinly helps financialy; some may argue that this is not right.

Maybe a better solution would be to have an across the EEC winter fuel allowance for senior citizens in all EEC countries.

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John S

I think the Cyprus fuel allowance is only given to those people who live above a certain altitude, whereas the UK winter fuel allowance is for all citizens over a certain age.

It's a difficult one.... Because part of me thinks - if you are living in another country, why should you receive a benefit which is aimed at helping UK citizens who are paying UK heating bills? Winter there is a lot longer than in Cyprus and I understand the A/C becomes a necessity for most people for a short time in the summer - but at the end of the day, we have a choice. If we choose to live out of UK, then should we still be entitled to receive the benefit?

The other part of me thinks - if we've paid into the system, then why shouldn't we be entitled?

When my turn comes, there will probably be nothing left in the pot anyway! Still got another 15yrs to go yet, seeing as I was one of those born at the wrong time when they changed the retirement age recently

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Regards
Shell

You see, Shell? You think like me on this one. It isn't easy to rationalise.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

For a person to be receiving child benefit, the children have to reside with the claimants.
When they recieve the claims form they have to state this on the form. If the claimant has a birth certificate and states that the child is living with them then this is accepted, if they have lied about the child living with them because they are abroad, this is fraud. Some of our fellow brits come to Cyprus and carry on claiming it, that is illegal also.
The government are not knowingly paying this benefit to children living abroad.
I think too many people are reading newspapers like the sun and the daily mail and believing these stories.
Another fact about child benefit is that anyone who has children can claim this as long as they reside in the UK, even millionaires, and I bet most of them do.

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Dave

The simple answer is for the relevant government office to ask the Media to sustantiate their claims and provide evidence.

On the Television this morning it showed a young Polish family moving into a new home whilst at the same time claiming both of them to be on minimum wage, my Daughter is in teaching and has a well paid job; her partner also has a well paid job yet they have struggled to get on the property ladder, I'm sure that they would love to know the Polish couples secret.

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John S

John are you saying that somebody gave them this house, and they now own it. Or do they have to pay rent from their minimum wage. If it is a housing association, then because the Polish family have children then that is why they have it.
So thats the secret, they have children. Something you dont need for a private rental.
You should be happy for this Polish family who are prepared to work for minimum wage.

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Dave

I dont see what is difficult we have worked all our lives and paid into a system. Because we choose to retire and live in a different country which shouldn't we get our dues.

Its simple really if you have paid in you are entitled, if you haven't then you aint - whats the problem

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Molly

Treat others as you want to be treated

Benefits change all the time..... Those which were in place when most of us started contributions are probably no longer in existence and new ones appear on a regular basis.

Tell me - will you also be wanting your free UK bus pass, purely because you are entitled?

Many pensioners come to live in Cyprus because of the low taxation here and tend to opt to pay their tax here rather than UK, it would be interesting to know how many of those who want to keep their UK fuel allowance are paying UK tax

The real question is where to draw the line.

We pay a relatively small amount of NI contributions, which eventually go towards our state pension. Some of the calculations mentioned earlier leads me to believe the poster would have had to have accumulated a pot of approx £200,000 to achieve a weekly payment of £160pw and then that would have not have to have been reduced by such things as doctors, dentists, prescriptions, hospital treatment or any other kind of welfare benefit etc. The bottom line is that most of the welfare state and health care in UK is paid not from NI contributions but, directly from tax raised each year.

Basically NI payments are only a token amount entitling us to be part of the welfare state "club". God forbid, if anyone of us has a serious or long term illness and has to pay privately (like here in Cyprus), it would probably cost near enough as much of our taxes and NI payments combined in one go.

Rant over Other half is now quietly fuming about those in UK who never work and get everything free

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Regards
Shell

Regarding the Polish family and the house it implied that they were buying not renting.

Why should I be happy? that just deosn't make sense; I don't benefit; the goods that they produce are no cheaper it's just more profit for the exploiter, I'm not the person exploiting them it is the employers who only employ Polish labour that are exploiting them, there is a large car body repair centre where my friend used to work; the shop floor is now 100% Polish speaking and all working for the minimum wage, the repairs are no cheaper. A factory in East Anglia now only employs Polish speaking workers, this is not the Sun or daily Mail the factory was named and shown on the news by the local MP.
These employers are the same class who went round the colonies exploiting the population of the British Empire, now they've found an easier way; they just bring the east Europeans to the UK and exploit them here.

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John S

If I had £200000 I certainly would expect more than double £160 per week which is a rather poor return of just 4.16%, off shore investing as has been stated by this forums members expects a return of 9% to 11%.
For a return of £160 PW we would only need a joint pot of just £100,000 @ 8.35% which would bring us close to our joint state pension.
Accepting that some of the benefits/health care are paid out of taxes and not NI contributions what is the difference it all ends up in the same pot.

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John S

John, I agree with you about the Polish workers working for the miniumum wage. The company they work for doesn't cut it's prices just because it has found someone to work for peanuts. It puts indiginous Brits out of work - not even on the poverty line, as they won't be employed.

Molly, I don't agree. If you are taking advantage of the lower taxation rates of the host country which you have chosen to live in, why should you have the benefits of the UK benefits system? Even if you have paid in. You chose to leave it behind. You can't have it all ways. If I am missing a point, I will apologise. But that is the way I look at it. These things need to be weighed up before people leave the UK - although if they change after you have left it is harder to accept.

I would like to have my cake and eat it, but morally I think it is wrong, which is why I struggle with this sort of scenario.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

[quote="Bassman62
Regarding the Polish family and the house it implied that they were buying not renting.

Why should I be happy? that just deosn't make sense; I don't benefit; the goods that they produce are no cheaper it's just more profit for the exploiter, I'm not the person exploiting them it is the employers who only employ Polish labour that are exploiting them, there is a large car body repair centre where my friend used to work; the shop floor is now 100% Polish speaking and all working for the minimum wage, the repairs are no cheaper. A factory in East Anglia now only employs Polish speaking workers, this is not the Sun or daily Mail the factory was named and shown on the news by the local MP.
These employers are the same class who went round the colonies exploiting the population of the British Empire, now they've found an easier way; they just bring the east Europeans to the UK and exploit them here.[/quote]

As the Polish family are earning minmum wage and cannot afford a house they would be buying a part share ownership. This is where the builders own half of the property, and the buyers mortgage the other half. After the mortgage is paid off, if they wish, the buyers are then allowed to buy the other half from the builder. It can take a long time with this system, but it is an open and realistic way to own a home to any families or young couples wishing to buy.

As for exploiting workers. Capatalism dictates the cheapest option. This is not the Polish peoples fault, just the greedy Employers. These are the types that you should vent your anger at. Not the people who are struggling to get by.

As you say "I dont benefit, the goods that they produce are no cheaper". If the employers paid £10 or £15 per hour, The local couch potatoes would be working there and you would pay a hell of a lot more for your goods. What would people be complaining about then?

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Dave

My cousin's husband isn't a local couch potato. He was interviewed by Sankey's, handed in his notice for his job which entailed a lot of travelling, and which he decided he no longer wanted to do, only to find that Sankey's never started him. They took on Polish workmen instead. That is wrong. It may not be the fault of the Polish - and I personally don't think it is - but it is not right to offer a man a job, then userp him with cheaper labour and leave him out of work.

The system shouldn't allow that to happen. The goods would have been the same price if my cousin's husband had worked for the wage he deserved. The profit goes in the pockets of the employer, so the end product wouldn't cost more.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

Shell, KaznDave and Verity.

I am so sick of listening to whinging rightwing expats moaning about the UK immigration "problem" but happy to move here and call themselves "expats" rather than immigrants. The racism I hear most days is sickening...

So you really cheered me up. I was beginning to feel very alone over here (in a political sense!) and getting mightily sick and tired of posts on all forums about these issues, all from one predictable side. You are so right about those who read the poison that comes out of the Daily Mail, and Express and believe everything they read.

As for the heating allowance - for some it may be difficult to lose a benefit to which you have become accustomed, but i think when you move to a country and take advantage of its tax system you should also reconcile yourself to living within its benefit system. You can't pick and choose. I stopped claiming child benefit when we came over, but i know many who carry on claiming in the uk - which is just wrong. They are also usually the folk first to cry out about low paid immigrants claiming benefits in the uk. If you pay tax in a country then you can claim its benefits while you live there. End of story.
If that means you don't get your heating allowance then so be it. If you live up where its really cold you'll get the Cypriot allowance.
end of rant!
Lisa

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worry is a misuse of the imagination.

Hi Lisa

You obviously feel very strongly about this.
I am not a whinging expat -mainly because I still live in the UK for now and experience first hand the drain on resources that immigration is causing. I am not racist and do not blame the immigrants - who can blame them going to another country in search of a better life ? Isn't that what you , I and most of the members on here have done or intend to do. I blame the government for allowing imigration on such a huge scale without having the infrastructure to support it, and the fat cat employers who are using them for cheap labour. Immigration and crime are the 2 main reasons that I will leave the UK in the next few years.
On the child benefit issue - I don't read newspapers as I am a believer in the only thing in them that you can truly believe is the date. There are approx 100 Polish workers in my company and I have spoken to people who have told me that they are claiming benefit for absent dependants = legally or illegally ? - I don't know.
My first post on this thead stated that I think expats should get the heating allowance. Verity's and other posts have made me think about this and now I'm not sure - but either way by the time I reach retirement age and live in Cyprus there will probably be no such allowance anyway !

Julie x

Obviously an emotive subject. Can you really blame people for wanting to come to a country that has such a great benefit system and encourages immigration on such a scale ? It is those in power over the last how many years that have been pushing/pulling buttons/strings to allow the current situation to occur ?

I beleive benefits are there for those that need them, when they need them. They are not designed to be a bank account into which you expect a return of x% after so many years work. When you pay in one country and move to another then surely your then entitled to what the new country offers, and if the new country doesn't bleed its workers for 30-50% % of their gross income then the end result is the benefits will be a lot less than in the original country.

My family is very young compared i think to most other British families in the area, but the child benefit HMRC gave us we stopped when we notifed them we have left UK. We stopped paying UK tax and NI contributions. We now pay everything here at a lower rate, on lower income and the benefits are harder to come by and appear to be a lot lower than in the UK. Its a different system, and comparing to UK it appears to be a lot less "pro-immigrants" !!

I can sure see why those that have put into the UK system for all their lives feel put out that new arrivals get benefits whilst they are going to lose theirs, but if you kept living in the UK you would have kept the benefits, so surely that was something to throw into the mix when considering moving abroad ?

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My opinion; worth price charged.

And that is where most of the people come unstuck in their argument, the goods haven't fallen in price since cheap labour was introduced so why should it go up if a fair wage is paid?
Regarding the brits who move to Cyprus the vast majority are seniors who bring their pensions and savings and don't undercut the local peoples income.
It is a well known fact that the UK has a poor pension level compared to most developed countries.
A house of Lords commitee has found that the mass influx of immigrants have made little or no benefit to the UK economy.
Regarding the silly racist comment which is so typical of certain types of people who when they have nothing worthwhile to contribute they play the racist card.

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John S

The trouble is that the indigenous people are rarely told what benefits they are entitled to, my Wife's parents were struggling along on £108 PW and still paying council tax, nobody told my Father-in-law who for some years had suffered from emphysema that he was entitled to benefits. "It's not in the governments interest for us to tell you what you'r entitled to" was a response that we got from the Social Services person who visited after my Mother-in-law suffered a stroke for which benefits are held back for 6 months after the stroke, when they did get finaly their entitled benefits their income then amounted to £275 PW.
What rightly offends so many older people who've paid their dues is how do these immigrants manage to get so easily onto the benefit system, who gives them the required information that never seems to get passed on to UK citizens.
And if this makes me a racist as has been implied then tough

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John S

I aint no whinging ex pat, neither do I want my cake and eat it!

I have work and paid into a system for 45 years, I have never claimed benefits so why shouldn't I be entitled!!

We brought our money into Cyprus and take nothing. We dont take the locals' jobs and are not a drain on the resources. Yes we pay low taxes cos that is the law of the land.

How many of you, who are not of retirement age, have not paid into the system in Cyprus and yet still take the heating allowance over here!!

and no I dont want a bus pass, cos I dont go on buses and dont need sarcasm !!

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Molly

Treat others as you want to be treated

[quote="Bassman62
And that is where most of the people come unstuck in their argument, the goods haven't fallen in price since cheap labour was introduced so why should it go up if a fair wage is paid?
A house of Lords commitee has found that the mass influx of immigrants have made little or no benefit to the UK economy.
Regarding the silly racist comment which is so typical of certain types of people who when they have nothing worthwhile to contribute they play the racist card. [/quote]

A neighbour of mine has a food processing company in the UK. It produces sauces, curries and spreads for supermarkets.
The supermarkets are always demanding cheaper products from him, and his profit margin is very small. Most of his staff are Polish. He told me that local people will not work for minimum wage so that is why he employs the Poles. If he employed locals and payed them a "decent wage" his profits would be so small that his company would go under.
In the UK prices rarely go down, but they will always go up.
I read from the BBC news that in 2006 the Immigrant working population made the country £6 Billion richer.
To be honest John, I read your posts on this and another site. I can say that you do blame immigrants for quite a lot of the UK problems. In fact more than any other poster on these sites. If people suggest your a racist, then maybe this is the reason.
Suggesting that people are playing the racist card, just makes it more convincing that you are racist. I wont even bother putting an emotion on.

[quote="Bassman62
The trouble is that the indigenous people are rarely told what benefits they are entitled to, my Wife's parents were struggling along on £108 PW and still paying council tax, nobody told my Father-in-law who for some years had suffered from emphysema that he was entitled to benefits. "It's not in the governments interest for us to tell you what you'r entitled to" was a response that we got from the Social Services person who visited after my Mother-in-law suffered a stroke for which benefits are held back for 6 months after the stroke, when they did get finaly their entitled benefits their income then amounted to £275 PW.
What rightly offends so many older people who've paid their dues is how do these immigrants manage to get so easily onto the benefit system, who gives them the required information that never seems to get passed on to UK citizens.
And if this makes me a racist as has been implied then tough [/quote]

There a loads of benefits that people are entitled to. Nobody is going to knock on everyones door to tell people what they are entitled to, nor are they going to post leaflets through everyones letter box either, it would cost a fortune.
Most people find out what they may be entitled to through friends and relatives, this is probably the way immigrants find out. The other places are Job Centres, Social Security offices and the best one is the Citizens Advice Bereau, they have been around for a long time, they will tell you what you are entitled to and even fill the forms in for you.
If you or your family didnt get around to visiting any of these places, and finding out what you may be entitled to, who's at fault?

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Dave

As I have said, I have some confusion in my mind over this subject. But - and I am only playing devil's advocate, not aiming this at anyone before people jump to wrong conclusions - if a UK heating allowance means so much to anyone then maybe they should live in the UK and claim it.

You have to weigh up the benefits of moving. If the benefits of staying in the UK outweigh the benefits of moving, don't move. If the benefits of moving outweigh the benefits of living in the UK, make the move.

We have paid in for over 30 years, so we have paid a fair whack. It is enough for me to turn my back on the UK system. Personally I am not looking for anything more from it. My personal opinion is that if I want what Cyprus will give me, and am still after what the UK will give me, I am wanting the best of both worlds.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

Verity I think you hit it on the head when you say that the pros and cons of staying in the UK or moving to Cyprus should be weighed up. For many senior citizens the pros for staying in the UK compared to moving to Cyprus are not as enticing, it is the pros of moving to Cyprus that have made so many mainly older UK people move to Cyprus, the recently introduced winter heating allowance being just one of the pros, if the British government do takes steps to stop this benefit then the obvious question is; what next?

If it is on some peoples conscience about the rights and wrongs about this allowance then maybe they should return it.

Another issue it has been refered as claiming winter fuel allowance; you don't claim it, it is paid automaticaly just the same as the £10 or whatever you get at Christmas.

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John S

Verity,
I think you and I are thinking along the same lines - it's a thin line though...

You know what I find really amazing though?

Reading the thread on this forum and the same one on Cyprus Living - everone there seems to think all pretty much the same way and yet here, it's made each of us take a step back to look at it from different angles.

I think it's great that we can each have a different perspective on the same subject.

Wonder what will have changed by the time I get to the great age of 65 though? I seem to be one of thos (un)lucky people that always gets caught up in the time of great change, for some reason. Must have just been born at the wrong time

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Regards
Shell

Hi John. It was more than just money that made us choose to move, so everything needs to be thrown into the equation. I can understand that it is an emotive subject, and what one person considers important, another doesn't. You have a point about what next. Is this the thin edge of the wedge?

I can actually see different viewpoints, which is why I admit to being confused.

I struggle to work out whether we are greedy to want it all, or whether it really is our right to have what is due from the UK AND the benefits of the Cypriot system.

Two thirds of the world is starving. I feel guilty for even considering whether I am bothered about a couple of hundred quid - or whatever it amounts to.

I went to post this and your post had been added, Shell. The trouble with me is that I do think too much and try to look at all angles, not only what will benefit me. I respect everyone elses right to feel how they feel, whether they have a strong view, or a view like ours. I just hope that others see that these are personal opinions, and not out to make anyone feel uncomfortable.

I am open to having my mind made up, one way or another.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

The problem is that the UK Tax Benefit system does not work like a Bank, it is not a case of what you pay in benefits you. The money we paid in went to pay for the previous generations pensions medicines etc and the money that is paying my pension is being paid in by my son and daughter. As the length of time we are living becomes longer there are many more pensioners to be paid and proportionally fewer people working to pay for them and that is where the trouble lies. When my father retired he was only expected to live a few years on his pension whilst I might live for 25 or so.
I agree that the UK is soft on benefits to people who have no link with the country [ I stand slightly to the right of Attila the Hun ] but but there is also an element of the population who have no intention of working. Whilst there are vacancies to be filled then if they were filled by UK citizens there would be a lot less immigration. Over the years many people have had to do jobs that they did not like but that is no reason for not working and living off the state [ the state has no money of it's own it's only money is that paid for by your taxes directly or indirectly ]. And you get the Government that the majority who bother to vote vote for.
When we moved here, of our own choice Ruth gave up some benefits that she got for her medical condition, but the benefits of the climate here on her health outweighed the disadvantages and yes I get the heating allowance and will not give it up if the Government in the UK are happy to give it to me, because at the moment we still pay UK tax. Once that is changed we will reconsider our position.
To speak out against what one considers an injustice is not racism, even if it happens that those whom you are speaking about are from a different country, it's a card this government likes to play to shut people, but I am Scots, and proud of it, and in the UK we are an ethnic minority, but none of the people who talk against the Scots are held to be racist, and rightly so. We are all entitled to our opinion, and if honestly held, then people are entitled to hold that view.
Anyway I've said enough, but as long as 100 of us are left standing . . . .

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Alastair

Nil illigitimae carborundum

And there must be 100 of you left standing. I think I can number that many Scots amongst my friends here in Cyprus. Well, it feels like that many.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

So why are you playing Devil's advocate Verity and what's the confusion you have?

No one said it meant so much to them to claim it, we dont claim it - it comes to us automatically, the same as our pension. So why should we live in the U.K. if we are receiving it?

Are you saying then that if we receive our U.K. pension we still should be living there?

As far as weighing the benefits up, U.K. heating allowance didn't even come into the equation.

I dont even see where, because of receiving a U.K. heating allowance has got anything to do with wanting the best of both worlds. The amount that we receive certainly doesn't change our life that much, so why when it comes with our pension should we refuse it. I certainly do not suffer with a guilty conscience cos I receive it.

Do the people that receive a heating allowance in Cyprus suffer from a guilty conscience because they haven't contributed to it. Or have any of them refused it.

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Molly

Treat others as you want to be treated

Wrong end of the stick, Molly. I have never said anyone should live in the UK to receive their UK pension. My confusion is with the heating allowance and whether it is relevant to receive a UK heating allowance - given because of the severity of the winters - if you don't live in the UK.

As for the Cyprus heating allowance, we have paid into the Social Insurance for almost two years. Others accept it who have not paid in to the system. That is another dimension to be added to the equation.

I have not accused anyone of anything. I have just said I have some confusion, which is just being honest. I have stated how I look at things - nothing to do with what you claim or don't claim. I wasn't making it personal cos I don't really care what others do as long as I feel comfortable with what I do.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

No, I'm not getting the wrong end of the stick - it was intimated that if you receive from the U.K. then you should live there. I said that we do not claim the heating allowance it is automatically sent to us the same as our pension. So as far as I am concerned one goes with the other.

I am certainly not confused whether it is relevant, we still need heating even living in Cyprus - and it certainly doesn't help the pensioners living in the U.K. that much with their heating bills

What I am positive about, as I've already said is we did not take the heating allowance into any of our sums when considering our move to Cyprus. We relied only on our own funds which we have work bl**dy hard for all our lives.

I really do not see what the great big issue is over a flipping small heating allowance and what it has to do with anything when it is an automatic procedure for a U.K. pensioner to receive it and not claim it

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Molly

Treat others as you want to be treated

If a UK heating allowance did not come into the equation for you then it didn't mean anything to you - and I said if it meant that much to anyone maybe they should live in the UK if they wanted to claim it. What was unsaid was "if it gets taken away". Maybe I should have added that. As it is part of what the UK gives to pensioners at the moment I am not, and have never, suggested that it should be turned down.

The post was not aimed at anyone, so there is no need to take it personally. It is my opinion. Which I am entitled to.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

Molly, I don't agree. If you are taking advantage of the lower taxation rates of the host country which you have chosen to live in, why should you have the benefits of the UK benefits system? Even if you have paid in. You chose to leave it behind. You can't have it all ways. If I am missing a point, I will apologise. But that is the way I look at it. These things need to be weighed up before people leave the UK - although if they change after you have left it is harder to accept.

I would like to have my cake and eat it, but morally I think it is wrong, which is why I struggle with this sort of scenario.

The above is what I took personally Verity - and yes you are entitled to your own opinion, the same as I am when being told the above

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Molly

Treat others as you want to be treated

That was a direct reply to one post Molly. There is no intimation in that reply that if you receive UK benefits you should live in the UK. I was posing a the question because of the dicotomy between how the Cypriot system benefits us and how the UK system benefits us.

I post as I speak, so I use the word you. I was replying to you, but I don't just mean you. I mean "you" generically, which includes myself. That is the problem with forums - they are 2D and you (generically) don't get the voice inflections or body language.

I also wrote, in reply to Shell -

"I respect everyone elses right to feel how they feel, whether they have a strong view, or a view like ours. I just hope that others see that these are personal opinions, and not out to make anyone feel uncomfortable.

I am open to having my mind made up, one way or another. "

Guess that got overlooked.

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Verity.

Be who you are, and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

http://coecyp.blogspot.com

The good old hyper lefty BBC who warped the Falkland facts, the Gulf War facts, the recent Israeli hezbulla conflict facts and now they claim a totaly opposite view on the value of the immigrant population to the report published by the House of Lords which states that the influx of immigrants has been of little value if any to the United Kingdom.

Regarding what you have written on the the last lines of you reply I find it as offensive as it ridiculous. To be racist you have to attack verbaly or otherwise another race, what I have said about Polish people is not racist.

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John S

People, People, People

This post was about the 'Threat to Winter Fuel Allowence' in the UK but you seem to be going way, way off topic

Lets bring it back on track & please don't start name calling or making any insinuations about other members feelings towards other nationailities or we'll have to lock the topic off & we don't want to do that on PP

Both me and my wife have paid our full N.I. or "stamp" and because we have left the UK before retirement age we are not eligable for the winter fuel payment, is this fair, no, but we have to live with it.
If we had decided to move to Australia, New Zealand Canada etc, our state pension would be frozen at the current amount and never rise with inflation etc, is that fair, no.
The current goverment brought this payment in for 2 reasons, the first because of the amount of pensioners that were dying from the cold, second for the huge and ever increasing vote.
Expats are allowed to vote for the general election, but maybe not many do. The government know this so they can can afford to ignore them, and save a bit of money.
Dont get me wrong, but if the goverment said we are going to increase the payment to UK residents by stopping expats payments, which maybe is what they are trying to do, a lot of UK pensioners would be happy with that decision.
I am not happy about it, even though I am not eligble for it. It may be the tip of iceberg for anything expats may recieve. Lets hope that the EU stop them.
If they do go ahead with this decision, use you're right to vote. In saying that I dont think that the other party would give it back to you, and they would probably have done the same.

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Dave

It is the law of the EEC that anyone from any EEC country is entitled to take their benefits with them if they move within the EEC, therefore the Winter Fuel Allowance has to be paid by law to anyone who received it before they left the UK as long as they move within the EEC.
This also applys to workers from EEC countries who were given Incapacity Benefit whilst working/living in the UK and have now returned to their own country; as long as they send in medical ceertificates when required they continus to get IB.

For the record my own view is that if you get the Cypriot allownce due to altitude in Cyprus you shouldn't receive the UK Winter Fuel Allowance, on the other hand we rented a house last November that would not qualify for the allowance; that house was cold even by UK standards and must cost a bomb to heat in the winter.

To summarise the UK government would be breaking the law if they stopped the Winter fuel allowance to ex-pats and would be liable to legal action by ex pats and the EEC.

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John S