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Title Deeds
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Author:  tanny [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Title Deeds
OK, here goes (Im going out to am looking forward to your replies).

Do you have yours?
Do you want yours?
Do you know what they are?
How long were you promised to get them?
How long did it take?
Unfinished complexes and contract issues (or this could be a seperate thread) and the issue of Deeds?
Intolerable cancellation clauses to pass title deeds?

Your inputs please.
Author:  Neil [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  cyprus property title deeds
Oh! dear .. what a can of worms ..

some will tell you that you dont need them.
some will tell you not buy without them
some will tell you you will get them in 6 months

Tanny you will hear a thousand stories, ...
Which one is right ?? .. I dont know ..

I see adverts from developers that say,
"title deeds secured"
Now what does that mean exactly ??
Author:  tanny [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Absolutely Neil, Im not necessarily looking for full page stories of woe that cannot be substantialed, however I am looking to se what people understand, their expectations and breif experiences.

They dont have to Name companies if they have ongoing situations, however an indication of company type would be a help. So Private, small, medium, multinational. New, young or old. Cyprus based, UK based etc

It may be a can of worms, but its one which people often avoid if possible.

Our apartment was completed 2 years ago by a small developer/architect and our solicitor tells us the titles should be issued in our name in 18 months from now and that there are no reasons for this not to be the case.
Author:  Starchild [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
We don't actually have ours in our hands. We had the title deeds to the land, but the guy we bought off didn't have the certificate of final completion for the property. So we went ahead and bought, and our solicitor withheld monies until the COFC was issued.

We have now paid the money for the title deeds. The title deeds for the land were transfered into our name when we bought the property. Now we are waiting for the land registry to put our name on the title deeds for the property. We have been told it could be around two years.

Whichever way, we have paid the money and have the receipt, so it is all a matter of waiting for the Cypriot bureaucratic wheel to turn now.

It is not like the UK where the bank hold your title deeds if you have a mortgage. Anyone, it seems, can get a copy of your title deeds. That is the bit I find confusing.

Verity. 8)
Author:  Candy [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have heard that it is now taking five years at least to get your title deeds as they are so far behind. Only working part time is the answer.

We have been here for four years in July and last March we were told by the Land Registry that we would have the deeds in about two months, unfortunately they didn't say how many years as well. :wink:

The developer I used class themselves as medium, although I would still say small.
Author:  Axel Foley [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Have owned our place for five years, don't yet have title deeds, only the document stamped at the land registry office. Yes, we do want our deeds but not unduly worried at the delay.

The fact that we don't yet have our deeds means that, if we wanted to sell, it restricts slightly who will buy, as a mortgage would not be possible due to the fact that, technically, without deeds, we don't own, it would restrict our buyers to cash buyers only.

I understand that our deeds are imminent.......................but "Cyprus" imminenet.

:) :) :)
Author:  Captain Fantastic [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
We've been in our place (new build) nearly 3 years now and not a sniff of any title deeds yet.

There does remain one unsold property on our complex, and I have been told this is quite common as the developer doesn't have to even apply for the deeds until all the properties are sold, but I've no idea how true this is! :?
Author:  Axel Foley [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Further to this though, people living on a complex can find the situation further complicated by the following : if the developer changes the layout from the original and many do, he must apply for retrospective planning permission, this can be done at any time during the build or even after completion.
When he applies for retrospective and it's granted, it's only then that he can apply for the deeds.

This means that even although your house has been completed for some time, if any changes have been made to the development from the original...............................the whole process is delayed.
Author:  Starchild [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Major Axel, never fear. We bought a re-sale property without title deeds - as I described above. And we had to take out a mortgage. So you can sell to people who need mortgages, even if you don't have your title deeds.

Verity. 8)
Author:  Axel Foley [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Verity, I think that, depending on who you go to for your mortgage, the title deeds thing can affect it, friends of ours, several of them, were not able to secure a mortgage on property with no deeds, it partly explains why new builds are being sold rather than re sales which are, in many cases, better value.

We have never been unduly concerned about the deeds situation, we will get them...............................eventually !!!!

( Don't like being a major.....................am supposed to be deep deep undercover SSSSHHHHH.)
Author:  Starchild [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
I guess it is like all things Cypriot. I think it helped that the bank manager seemed to have a genuine soft spot for us, too.

Like you we aren't too bothered either. But we don't plan to sell until we retire. Then we fancy renting and using our son's inheritance to go off travelling.

Providing we have enough marbles and our physical health of course. :D

Verity. 8)
Author:  clive of payia [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
This will liven things up. I have lived in Peyia for six year and I am a permanent resident. Cyprus is now my home. No property or ties with the UK at all.

1. Do I have my title deeds?

You bet I have. Bought a re-sale with title deeds from another Brit and did the legal work through our UK lawyers and transferred the money in the UK. All that had to be done in Cyprus was for the seller to do the legwork to get all the forms complete and signed off, and our joint attendance at the Land Registry Office for me to pay the property transfer tax and have my name put on the title deeds – bingo done. I was fortunately advised to do it this way some years ago; all done within three months of coming to Cyprus.

Many will tell you that you don't have to worry it you don’t have your title deeds. Well, always ask them do they have any vested interest in the property market. Most people I know are very anxiously awaiting their title deeds. There are others who think they have saved themselves some money by not having to pay the transfer tax – penny wise, pound-foolish. Rest assured they will eventually have to pay it and at what price will the Cyprus government make them pay. At the current market price of their property not when they bought it is my guess.

OK, still not convinced? Well, just say to yourself, and also ask your UK lawyer and your grown up children the following for their opinions:

“I am going to pay out £UK 150,000, (put your own figure in), for a property in Cyprus, but I wont get my title deeds for a couple of years, MAYBE. Some people I have heard about are still waiting after fifteen years for theirs. Without the title deeds in my name I will not legally own the land until the developer EVENTUALLY transfers them to me. In the meantime the developer will in all probability take out a mortgage on the land my property sits on to finance other building projects and there is nothing I can do about it. If the developer fails on the loan my property sits on I can either be liable for the outstanding balance on the loan or my property is auctioned to pay off the loan and I loose everything, do you think this is a bit of a risk? If subsequently wish to sell the property before I get the title deeds, I will have to pay a cancellation fee to the nice kind developers for him to release me from the original sales contract; this could be as much as Euro 30,000.”

I just wonder what kind of replies you will get.




Clive of Payia
Author:  discopants [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bloody Hell Clive,
That's food for thought. Scary in fact.
Think I'll rent !
Gary
Author:  John [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi All

Clive's summary is excellent and to the point.

But if you wish to read about this situation in more depth there is an article on my web site that you might find of interest.

Article Here

PS. I have finally managed to provide a direct link using BBCode hence the number of edits! Doh!!
Author:  Minerva [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Verity - at least you have two marbles - unless you've lost them already!!
Ruth
Author:  Neil [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would change that domain if I were you john..
www. girltalk is not a very good address :shock:

I can agree with things you are saying , but you
cannot have title deeds straight away if you buy from plan.
unless its a single plot ..
most developers buy a large a plot , then put x amount of houses on it, then they split the plot into individual plots when they apply for the deeds , after they get the completion certificate ..
Author:  John [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Neil

I have just purchased http://cyprusinformer.eu and I am setting this up with a space host. (The hosting I have already will be a mirror for development.) Thanks for your input.

I agree completely with what you say about off plan. You will never get Title with purchase on a multi property single plot development.

Custom build on land that you purchase outright or a re-sale with title is the only safe way.
Author:  Starchild [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Clive is spot on. We paid the transfer tax, and as our property would be marketed for more than we actually paid for it we were lucky not to have had to pay more.

We were fairly naive about purchasing in Cyprus, even with all the homework that we had done. I still feel that we had a good lawyer and I am grateful for that.

Verity. 8)
Author:  Tina Mason [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
clive of payia wrote:
. All that had to be done in Cyprus was for the seller to do the legwork to get all the forms complete and signed off, and our joint attendance at the Land Registry Office for me to pay the property transfer tax and have my name put on the title deeds – bingo done.


This is exactly what we did when we bought our land last May. We had the deeds in our name within 2 weeks of agreeing to the purchase. Our solicitor held the money until this was done.

We previously bought an apartment from one of the largest developers in 1986 and when we sold it 10 years later we still had no title deeds, which did give us some problems. Didn't stop them charging us the property tax on it though, which is another can of worms!!!
Author:  clive of payia [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Neil & John,

You are correct. Develpers have deliberately set up off-plan sales so that very few purchasers will eventually obtain title deeds. Because the developers don't want you to have them, they can make even more money out of you if they retain them. On many off-plan developments the developers dont even own the land in the first place so asking them for title deeds is a waste of time.

Message here is: Off-plan is now a flawed method of buying property in Cyprus - anybody disagree?????

How many have brought off-plan twice?????

How many with the knowledge they now have would buy again wthout title deeds?????
Author:  Molly [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:52 am ]
Post subject: 
1) Do you have yours? - No

2) Do you want yours? - Yes

3) Do you know what they are? - Still in the Developer's name

4) How long were you promised to get them? - 'Every effort will be made for two years'

5) How long did it take? - Still waiting, bought our house 3 years ago this May.

6) Intolerable cancellation clauses to pass title deeds? - We have a clause in our contract that if we wanted to sell our house, there would be no cancellation fee to pay the Developer.
Author:  Captain Fantastic [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Molly wrote:
6) Intolerable cancellation clauses to pass title deeds? - We have a clause in our contract that if we wanted to sell our house, there would be no cancellation fee to pay the Developer.


I've checked ours, and if we sell before we get the deeds we have to pay a 1% cancellation fee - does anyone know is this normal/high/low??
Author:  Tina Mason [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:58 am ]
Post subject: 
clive of payia wrote:
How many have brought off-plan twice?????
How many with the knowledge they now have would buy again wthout title deeds?????


Bought off plan once and would never do it again. No question.

Don't know about the 1% Martin but I am sure others will.
Author:  cypriotsid [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ours is lodged awaiting issue.Anytime now apparently.

frank

we shall see
Author:  Starchild [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Oh Frank. I love your optimism. :lol:

Ruth - a bit late with the reply, but yes. I still have two marbles. :wink:

Verity. 8)
Author:  Bassman62 [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Title deeds
Verity, if you have the title deeds to the land but not the building; and say the developer has re-mortgaged you house (not the land because you have the deeds) and things went wrong; with the bank trying to reclaim your house would you not be within your rights to charge the bank rent as well as a fee for looking after the house as it is sitting on you land?
How's things by the way.
PS. we went to 'BuySell', out of 20 propertys we were interested in only 4 had title deeds.


John & Val
Author:  Neil [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
I dont think that would be possible.
he cant do that ,, the bank would want to see deeds
before they would give him more money ..

If you have the deeds for the land , you should be ok..
Author:  Bassman62 [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Neil wrote:
I dont think that would be possible.
he cant do that ,, the bank would want to see deeds
before they would give him more money ..

If you have the deeds for the land , you should be ok..


So what is the point gained by giving the land deeds but not providing the title deeds to the property.
I'm not talking about a mortgaged property
Author:  John [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
John

A mortgage must surely be on the land as well as on the concrete and steel. I can't see that you can separate the two.

If you own land (with your name or names entered by the appropriate Cyprus District Land Office for a plot and a Certificate of Registration [Title Deed] is issued) then, as I understand it, you own everything that is on it (but may be not below it because of supervening rights of the State for minerals, metals etc.,)

But this is interesting. I was looking at a Cyprus Lands Office web page a few months ago and noted that Title Deeds could be issued provided that a registrant acknowledged a prior mortgage in writing. Hence my advice that if you are purchasing or just registering land in your name (self conveyancing) you need to do this at least with a Greek & fluent English speaking independent lawyer present because with docs in Greek how do you know if you are signing for the acknowledgment of a prior mortgage that might not be yours !!

In the UK, The Land Registry would issue a Land Certificate for unencumbered land on first registration and a Charge Certificate for encumbered or mortgaged land. In the latter case there are strict rules to stop an earlier first mortgage being usurped by a later mortgage.

In Cyprus you don't get Title Deeds with these distinctions or protection periods and it is vital that multiple searches are very carefully conducted by a lawyer to ensure that nobody takes advantage of you.

For that reason alone, nobody should take Title Deeds, either at purchase or issue later, without employing a good independent lawyer. It looks so easy to self conveyance but it is just too risky. I have had many,many sleepless nights on two land deals and I would NEVER, EVER, do it again.

To answer your question, John, from another perspective, I can't see why an Architect would benefit unilaterally by withholding a Certificate of Completion or Approval on land that was owned outright. Because if money has been withheld until it is produced then it would be an exchange of money for certificate as Verity has explained is the case for her and Phil.

I can't think of a scam on this yet !! Unless you know differently of course !!
Author:  Bassman62 [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:04 am ]
Post subject: 
John
As Verity said this is not unknown she is in the same position herself, the owner of a house that we were recently considering said that he had the title deeds to the land but not the property on it.
Surely there needs to be some clarification on this point by someone who is qualified to pass on this information. In saying that I make no reference to you personaly.
Author:  cypriotsid [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:26 am ]
Post subject: 
Starchild wrote:
Oh Frank. I love your optimism. :lol:

Ruth - a bit late with the reply, but yes. I still have two marbles. :wink:

Verity. 8)


I thought that would make you chuckle verity.

frank :lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  John [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi John

You can only get a qualified view from a lawyer registered and licensed to practice in Cyprus. But you will have to pay for it !!

No one else giving you an opinion on this is qualified to do so. That is why I emphasised that point in my post.

Don't risk it, get a good independent lawyer !!
Author:  tanny [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Newbie John on this one, always use an independant lawyer, preferrably through recommendation and checked out by posting on this site for verification and opinion.
Author:  John [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
One day I might be Major John !!
Author:  Bassman62 [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
You have to be a minor first
Author:  John [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Nice one John..........have wanted to be a minor for sometime now.............less hastle perhaps !!
Author:  Bassman62 [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
John wrote:
Nice one John..........have wanted to be a minor for sometime now.............less hastle perhaps !!

Easy pick a key and flatten the third. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  Wendywop [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
We must have been lucky then, bought a re-sale and got title deed's no problem!

Wendy. 8)
Author:  paphosgirl [ Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
) Do you have yours? - Yes

2) Do you want yours? - Got em

3) Do you know what they are? - yip

4) How long were you promised to get them? - 6 months (ok we brought a re-sale that was 3 years old)

5) How long did it take? - bout a month.

Ok this is how we went about it, thought we could get them ourselves - if you speak greek you will be able to do this no problem as we don't we hired a fab lawyer (PM if you want details) got the letter from developer stating we owed them nothing, went to the gov office next door to the PO opp
Marks & Sparks (paid nominal fee for something no idea what all in greek) went back 2 weeks later to collect it, took this to our solicitor who then arranged whatever he arranged with the developer and land registry asked us to come back the following week, took us to the new gov building opp the law courts did his bit with the dev and land reg there, and there we waiting for about 5 hours (no toilets or food avail and i was very hungy and desp for the loo - think this is now sorted) then the shocker, went to pay for em, hum ho least we have them now, it was a long day but IMHO worth it as we now own the land and the house (apart from the mortgage that is - oh and thats another matter you can't actually buy a re-sale without TD's how did we do it? Again ask my solicitor as he bailed us out big time with this one too - great guy).

Anyhoo thats us, hope it helps someone.

Cheerio

Amanda
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