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 Post subject: Belgium bans the veil
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:49 pm 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ap ... -burqa-ban

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Belgium's parliament is expected to pass a law today that would ban Islamic veils in public, making it the first European country to ban the wearing of the burqa or niqab.

The bill, which has been criticised by human rights campaigners as a violation of the fundamental right to freedom of religion, was voted for unanimously by the lower chamber's home affairs committee last month.

The law would make it a crime to be in a public place with one's face partially or wholly concealed in a way that would make identification impossible. Violators would be subject to a fine of €15-€25 (£12-£21) with a possible prison sentence of one to seven days.

There are no official statistics on how many women wear face-covering veils, though analysts agree it is a marginal phenomenon among the roughly 400,000 Muslims living in Belgium (about 4% of the country's population). In 2009, 29 women were stopped by police in eight municipalities in the Brussels region that already ban the full Muslim veil.

A similar move is being considered in France, where President Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered legislation paving the way for a total ban on the full Islamic veil. Sarkozy is moving ahead on the ban despite the advice of experts who warned that such a broad ban risked contravening France's constitution.

Sarkozy has repeatedly said that such clothing oppresses women and is "not welcome" in France. A government spokesman, Luc Chatel, said after yesterday's weekly cabinet meeting that the president decided the government should submit a bill to parliament in May on an overall ban on burqa-like veils.

"The ban on veils covering the whole face should be general, in every public space, because the dignity of women cannot be put in doubt," Chatel said.

The decision to seek a full ban, rather than a limited ban, came as a surprise. After a cabinet meeting just a week ago, the government spokesman announced a decision for legislation that bans the veil but takes into account conclusions by the council of state, France's highest administrative office.

The council advised that a full ban would be "legally very fragile". A six-month parliamentary inquiry concluded that a full ban would raise constitutional issues, as well as enforcement problems.

Muslim leaders in France say that the face-covering veil is not a religious requirement of Islam but have cautioned against banning the garment. Of France's estimated five million Muslims, only a tiny minority wear the full veil. Some critics of the ban have warned that such a move will serve merely to reinforce the alienation of those women from mainstream society.

Human Rights Watch has strongly criticised planned legislation to ban face-covering veils on human rights and practical grounds.

"Bans like this lead to a lose-lose situation," said Judith Sunderland, senior western Europe researcher at Human Rights Watch. "They violate the rights of those who choose to wear the veil and do nothing to help those who are compelled to do so."

The group argues that there is no evidence that wearing the full veil in public threatens public safety, public order, health, morals, or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others – the only legitimate grounds for interference with fundamental rights, it said. Rather than help women who are coerced into wearing the veil, a ban would limit, if not eliminate, their ability to seek advice and support.


I want to say it's a good move - especially for the poor women who have had to wear them for so long, but I can also see the downside as well in that it'll be the women punished by their religion for not wearing them - lose lose situation for them!

What do you think?

Yxx

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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Mmmm ??
I best stay out of this one ... :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Intersting that yesterday in the Gulf News, there was a photo of the King of Saudi with a group of around 30 women, with only two having their faces covered - one was actually "flashing" some hair from under her headscarf.

With Saudi considering it practices the "purest" form of the religion, I don't see the issue related to freedom of religion. Muslims I know say there is no reference to face covering in the Quran, but stand to be corrected.

Adrian


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:53 am 
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Adrian DXB wrote:
With Saudi considering it practices the "purest" form of the religion, I don't see the issue related to freedom of religion. Muslims I know say there is no reference to face covering in the Quran, but stand to be corrected.

Adrian


I think it's an issue of interpretation, same as with all religions - when a book written hundreds of years ago in an ancient language is intepreted with a modern world in mind you're almost guaranteed to come up with inconsistent conclusions.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Wasn't a male robber in Australia this week dressed in a burka (spelling)?

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Quote:
The law would make it a crime to be in a public place with one's face partially or wholly concealed in a way that would make identification impossible.


Does this include beards?

But more seriously, is there anything known about whether the ladies in Belgium who are wearing veils are unhappy doing so?

Pete


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:12 am 
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peteandsylvi wrote:
Quote:
The law would make it a crime to be in a public place with one's face partially or wholly concealed in a way that would make identification impossible.


Does this include beards?

But more seriously, is there anything known about whether the ladies in Belgium who are wearing veils are unhappy doing so?

Pete

Under Islam which is a male dominated religion the "ladies in Belgium" don't have a say, from birth they're told to do as the males of the religion decree.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:25 am 
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Bassman62 wrote:
peteandsylvi wrote:
Quote:
The law would make it a crime to be in a public place with one's face partially or wholly concealed in a way that would make identification impossible.


Does this include beards?

But more seriously, is there anything known about whether the ladies in Belgium who are wearing veils are unhappy doing so?

Pete

Under Islam which is a male dominated religion the "ladies in Belgium" don't have a say, from birth they're told to do as the males of the religion decree.


I repeat the question.

Pete


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:42 am 
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I think what Bassman is saying is that in that despicable religion, women have NO say whatsoever. So we will never know if they are unhappy or not.
Still, on the basis of the religion only being 1400 years old or so they should have a say about 2700AD, so if you could hold on a bit then you'll get the answer.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:34 am 
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peteandsylvi wrote:
But more seriously, is there anything known about whether the ladies in Belgium who are wearing veils are unhappy doing so?

Pete

Under Islam which is a male dominated religion the "ladies in Belgium" don't have a say, from birth they're told to do as the males of the religion decree.[/quote]

I repeat the question.

Pete[/quote]
And I'll repeat my answer

The muslim "ladies in Belgium" don't have a say

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:59 pm 
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I bet the real ugly ones are not happy about it ...

TAXI FOR NEIL :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 2:01 pm 
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They will become like woman from the north east of england
and just stay in the house to cook and iron ..

SECOND TAXI FOR NEIL :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:28 pm 
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There's not that many cook and iron Neil.
Gary :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:11 pm 
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peteandsylvi wrote:
Does this include beards?Pete


I think its a plot by 'BIC'. If they banned the veil sales of 'BIC' razors would rocket.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:00 am 
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Neil wrote:
They will become like woman from the north east of england
and just stay in the house to cook and iron ..


Don't take it out on us if you can't train your womenfolk properly....

:wink:


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:15 am 
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Coo Captain,
You're brave for this early in the day !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:32 am 
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Bassman62 wrote:
peteandsylvi wrote:
Does this include beards?Pete


I think its a plot by 'BIC'. If they banned the veil sales of 'BIC' razors would rocket.

they cant be as hairy as the cypriot woman , some of them can
grow better moustaches than me :shock: :shock: :shock:
:smilielol

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 11:38 am 
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Neil wrote:
they cant be as hairy as the cypriot woman , some of them can
grow better moustaches than me :shock: :shock: :shock:
:smilielol


Is that because they have more testosterone than average or you have less, though?

:celebrate :smilielol

Pete


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