Paphos People

From today's Daily Mail.

"Britain has agreed to hand over half of its territory on Cyprus if the island's Greek and Turkish communities can reach a historic settlement at crucial talks this week.

The British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson will join the leaders of the Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot halves of the island tomorrow as they edge closer to a solution which would reunify Cyprus for the first time since 1974 when Turkey invaded.

Britain ruled Cyprus until independence in 1960 and still has two large sovereign base areas - RAF Akrotiri and Dhekelia - which remain key to British interests in the Middle East.

But in 2009 then prime minister Gordon Brown offered to hand back almost half of the base if the two sides could come to an agreement to reunify the island.

Today the Foreign Office confirmed for the first time that Theresa May's government is willing to abide by the offer made by Mr Brown.

A Foreign Office spokesman told the Mail Online: 'We are still committed to that. We will offer almost half of the sovereign base area but only if a deal is reached and passed by referendums in both communities.' "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4110086/Britain-hand-HALF-territory-Cyprus-historic-settlement-deal-island-s-Greek-Turkish-communities.html

Another 'masterstroke' from Brown the duffer!
The same man who effectively sold the UK's gold reserves, when the price was low.

The one thing that man could never be accused of was having good judgement - ask Tony Blair if you don't agree.

However, it is disturbing that bumbling Borris et al, think it commonsense to honour this absurd promise. As usual our wonderful politicians are quick to give away UK possessions, but prove totally inept at gaining them for the countries benefit, a much more difficult task.

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I'll be back!

The proposal makes perfect sense and would not impact on UK operations from Cyprus at all. Much of the land to be given back is already effectively "owned" by Cypriots anyway, it is farmed by them and occupied by them and would actually relieve British troops from a lot of hassle.

I think it's an embarrassment to 'own' sovereign land in another country, smacks of old colonialism and we should pack up and leave, especially given brexit...why should the uk waste good resources in a country that prefers Russia anyway...

I've proposed that they give the land back years ago, take our recruits airplanes and machinery away...in this day and age we can do it all from home or on aircraft carriers if needed, we don't need it....and it's not ours.

Let's pull out now...

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

Geoff.

...errr...what aircraft carriers? At present th UK doesn't have any!

...and our fighter jets do not have the range to get from the UK to the Middle East and back again - even supposing we could get clearance to fly over various EU countries for offensive operations.

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Initium Sapientiae Timor Domini

but the truth is , it is not ours , like the faklands they are not ours , would we like it if people lay claim to the the isle of white or jersey..
give it back ...

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REACH 1000`s of PAPHOS CUSTOMERS EVERY DAY FOR A FRACTION OF WHAT THE OTHERS CHARGE
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Whilst the optimist and the pessimist argued that the whisky glass was either half full
or half empty ? .
I drank it .....
The opportunist..

Oh dear, you mean that I fought and lost comrades in a war for territory that didn't belong to us?

Just because the Falklands are nearer to Argentina, does not make them Argentinian territory. If anything, they belong to the Falkland Islanders and we - the UK - are responsible for their defence amongst other things. This is the will of the islanders.

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Initium Sapientiae Timor Domini

David if other countries need our help, we use their resources, if we can't reach anywhere we can borrow other landing strips in between set up temporarily, there's a million ways without laying claim to land permanently that is NOT OURS....it's wrong.

I do believe our forces are the best trained in the world, but we have bases we don't lay claim to owning elsewhere in the world Germany being one...they work just fine...this Cyprus base is not ours...we should give it back....if we are invited to stay to a far lesser degree and can afford too...then fine.

The falklands is very different, the first recorded landing was made by an Englishman, Captain John Strong, in 1690, just ahead of the French (1701). Britain's early claim is strong and, if Britain abandoned the islands in 1774, so did the future Argentine republic in 1811. London has provided settlement and support without a break since 1834, including long periods in both 19th and 20th centuries when Buenos Aires' claims went quiet....

We've been very involved in the falklands for over 500 years...

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

But it IS ours, as are the Falklands and Gibraltar.

When the UK gave Cyprus independence the SBAs weren't part of the deal and were designated Sovereign territory. The UK forces aren't occupying Cypriot land.

Also the UK doesn't have aircraft carriers any longer and, given that the bulk of the work done here is listening and intelligence gathering, there isn't anywhere else it can be done. Strategically, Cyprus is vital.

If, as you say, "we" should pack up and leave, presumably that should also include ex-pats who also own their own bits of Cyprus?

I believe he SBA's constitute about 2.8% of Cyprus' land mass- so presumably about 1.4% is on offer. That is not a huge amount, but it is presumably prime real estate and maybe be useful in terms of compensation for the dispossessed?

As for the long term future of the bases- well if there is a settlement that actually works and Britain does not want to assume any guarantor role then it is conceivable that the rest could be handed over, but until such time as Britain has a functioning aircraft carrier fleet that would be a mistake.

Problem of course is that Britain has two useless aircraft carriers built at huge expense and only one type of plane is available to operate from them.

Trump may be scrapping the F35 project leaving Britain with two enormously expensive white elephants and no means of deploying air power in a very volatile part of the world, unless we are forced in to renting the bases back (which would not be a very clever piece of business by the UK)

If the bases ever did come up for grabs the Russians would doubtless be interested and it is not inconceivable that Cyprus will have another government that is more Russian orientated than the current one (and the current one recently granted the Russia navy access to Cypriot ports in return for a reduced interest rate on the rolled over loan that Christophias took out)

Cyprus was 'given' to us briefly...we gave it back in 1960....it was never ours....never never never...

I own part of Cyprus! I didn't just walk in and say it's mine! I got a contract, got a lawyer, paid for it and got the deeds to prove it...I didn't just say ' I own it' Cyprus land used by the UK army is not legally ours...no matter how many ways you say it...expats who've legally purchased own their part.

The spy base is vital, there are a number of countries besides the uk involved in that work...but once again, the land it's on belongs to Cyprus...and as such we should be paying for it...do we?

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

Right or wrong the SBAs are legally Britain's and there is no point paying for something you already legally own

I am sorry, but your comments do not appear to be correct. Around 40% (I'm guessing the important 40%) is owned (or leased) by the UK.

This is an extract from the SBA Administration website which may help clarify things.

"The Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, usually referred to as Western Sovereign Base Area (WSBA) and Eastern Sovereign Base Area (ESBA), are those parts of the island which remained under British jurisdiction on the creation of an independent Republic of Cyprus in 1960. Under the 1960 Treaty of Establishment, HMG retained sovereignty over the SBAs, which cover 3% of the land area of Cyprus, a total of 98 square miles (47.5 at Akrotiri and 50.5 at Dhekelia). However, HMG does not own most of the land. About 60% is privately owned; some 20% is UK MOD-owned or leased land; with the remaining 20% being Crown land held by the Administration (including forests, roads, rivers and Akrotiri Salt Lake)."

Also, if Cyprus was never ours, how were we able to give it back?

Oh come on....

The continuing British military presence in Cyprus has given rise to local unrest: a latter-day reminder, if one is needed, of a difficult colonial relationship which exploded into violence in the 1950s and, however indirectly, helped make possible the sadly divided condition of Cyprus today.

Aren't we benefiting from the strategic position of the island without bothering to honour any of its financial and political obligations towards the Cypriots.

For those, who care, the British National Archives at Kew are rife with released British Governments’ documents that give evidence to the ‘however indirect’ engineering of the sad division of Cyprus.

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First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you...then you win.

Some do not seem to understand the meaning of the word 'Sovereign' !

same way if you steal something , then you can give it back...

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REACH 1000`s of PAPHOS CUSTOMERS EVERY DAY FOR A FRACTION OF WHAT THE OTHERS CHARGE
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Whilst the optimist and the pessimist argued that the whisky glass was either half full
or half empty ? .
I drank it .....
The opportunist..

i am sorry Lyn but you are wrong, the SBA's are of huge strategic importance to not only to UK defence but NATO, oh and trust me Russia does not underestimate its value. It is our eyes and ears into the Middle east and a crucial staging post for projecting our Military effort, the last time I looked the UK did not have an aircraft carriers...the bases support the local economy and care for the land it "owns". This has nothing to do with Brexit, a silly comment, the U.K. Is not retiring from global influence, and everything to do wth making a valuable contribution to the defence of the UK, and yes Europe, yes I know, sometimes the truth hurts.
I didn't see the GC complaining too much back in "74" when the SBAs sheltered and protected thousands of GC from harm during the Turkish invasion, or when they ensured the safety of the President.. Yes we do need the SBA's their loss would be significant blow to our defence capability.

Not really. If something is stolen and the thief openly gives it back, they can expect to be arrested and prosecuted. In the case of the SBAs I suspect that there may be some paperwork to back up the UK position.

I guess it is all down to the individual viewpoint and whether you are pro or anti UK.

Perhaps this should be moved to the political section?

Steal?

There was an agreement between the 3 Guarantor Powers (UK, Greece and Turkey) AS WELL AS the fledgling Government of Cyprus that the UK would retain the areas now known as SBAs as UK SOVEREIGN territory. At present, none of the Guarantor Powers nor the RoC government are requesting or requiring the SBAs to be 'returned'. Neither is there any legal basis for that to happen.

Just supposing, however, that the UK unilaterally agreed to 'give back' (as you put it) a portion of the SBAs. Who should they 'give it back' to? Your inference that the Falklands belongs to Argentina because of their geographical position should also infer that we hand over the SBAs to Turkey - after all, it's only 80km away as opposed to Greece which is 1,000 km away. As Great Britain first annexed Cyprus from the Ottoman Empire after WW1, maybe that strengthens the case that Turkey 'owns' Cyprus....

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Initium Sapientiae Timor Domini

I don't want to seem un-patriotic, and I am not.
HOWEVER I would comment as follows:
1. Cyprus wanted independence from UK in 1960 and they were given it after a battle for it,
but they had to agree to the rent-free SBA. Time to correct that and make it fair, pay up UK!
2. What goes on at SBA (covert communications, air-strikes on ISEL, etc) makes Cyprus a prime
target to the terrorists. This bothers me living here! Brown paper bag over your head and
head between your knees and a prayer comes to mind.

Geoff.

Geoff

As I understand it the SBAs were never part of the land given to establish the Republic.

Yes, the work that is done makes Cyprus a target, but not an easy one. It is a small(ish) island and not easy to get in and out of unnoticed. The TRNC also appreciates the risk and are pretty vigilant on their side. Personally I think Cyprus is by far the safest place in this part of the world.

I think you mean "..were never part of the land GIVEN to establish the Republic".
Well if it was or wasn't doesn't alter the fact that in the 21st Century UK should now pay up.
I think you are on cloud cuckoo land regards Cyprus safety.
Geoff.

Oh dear, I am agreeing with Geoff once again.

The bases are huge compared with that which is required to carry out their military duties. If half was given to Cyprus it wouldn't even be missed by the UK.

But on the expanded point about the value of the bases, if the UK stopped invading other countries (or assisting in their invasion) then there would be no need for "listening" activities and the bases would be redundant.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

That is word for word what I said!

You can argue this forever and not come up with a solution, I remember being stationed in Germany when the troops were being withdrawn and bases closed, many of the locals were employed on those bases and lost their jobs. I was in Munster when they started to close down the bases, the locals were shocked a lot of businesses closed down, UK troops put a lot of money into the community also do a lot for the community so to close down the bases would have the same effect.

Whats the fuss,,just another little bite into our once Great British Empire.The Roman Empire comes to mind.The iconic British Bulldog is now toothless
Sad really when I remember my grandad telling me the tales of his time at Ypres in the first world war,like a seventeen year old boy shouting for his mother just before he slowly died of his injuries..Poor kid he did it all for nowt.

Did you ever serve on an SBA?

It never has been the treaties were signed on independence they never have been and never will be ours and they worked very well for the Cypriots.

Akrotiri and Episkopi provided much of the economy for Limassol, there were UK establishments in Limassol as well employing many Cypriots along with those working on the bases.

Has Episkopi SBA been closed?

Good post, I served on Episkopi SBA in 1966/7, over 90% of married personnel from Episkopi and Akrotiri lived in Limassol in rented hirings.
We still visit the family who we rented our bungalow off, our landlady worked at Episkopi, hundreds of Cypriots worked on the Episkopi and Akrotiri SBAs.
The daughter of our landlady used to rent out a property to UK service people but it all ended in 1974 after the invasion when Brit service personnel and their families were moved onto the bases, Had the British forces not been there you would all now be living under Turkish rule.

The SBAs were agreed under treaty much to the benefit of the Cypriot people, they never were and never have been British in the true sense, even the SBA police were and probably still are Cypriot as was the fire station at Episkopi SBA staffed by Cypriots.

I believe it is part of the Akrotiri SBA.

They are mostly Cypriot, and not necessarily Greek Cypriot!

Most signage on the SBA's is in English, Greek and Turkish probably representing all those involved in the process.

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Straight talking, no Gimmicks.

Live your dreams.

They were two separate bases when we last visited, Happy Valley was part of Episkopi SBA.

Akrotiri and Episcopi are 2 separate bases with the Southern SBA

Akrotiri is predominately RAF with facilities at ‘The Mole’ for visiting Royal Navy ships.

Episcopi is predominately Army

The southern SBA Police station is located between both bases

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Dave
Moira And Dave

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”

The SBAs are correctly called the Eastern SBA (ESBA) and the Western SBA (WSBA). If you look on a map of the SBAs you will see that the WSBA incorporates both Akrotiri and Episkopi.

Whilst they are separate bases they are both situated within the WSBA.

Correct, can't tell between my South and west

Under the terms of the 1960 independence treaties, Great Britain was allowed to retain two "Sovereign Base Areas" (SBAs) and several isolated sites scattered throughout Cyprus, such as the RAF radar dome on Mt. Olympus, the island's highest point, and various antenna arrays in Ayios Nikolaos, near Famagusta.

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Dave
Moira And Dave

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”

Note that the Daily Mail article posted by Effsie correctly stated:

"Britain has agreed to hand over half of its territory on Cyprus if the island's Greek and Turkish communities can reach a historic settlement at crucial talks this week".

This thread is mistakenly called "UK to hand back half of SBA if settlement reached."

Words are important. "Handing back" implies returning something that doesn't belong to you. "Handing over" means giving care, control and ownership to someone or something else.

No matter how you slice it and dice it, the SBAs are British Overseas Territory which are sovereign. The SBAs have its own administration, its own laws and its own justice system.

The reasoning behind the UKs offer is to assist the land issue to be resolved in the peace talks. Greek Cypriots make up two thirds of Cypriots on the island (not including the SBAs) and they therefore expect control over two thirds of the land mass with Turkish Cypriots retaining one third. This means the TRNC ceding some of its ill-gotten gains which it sees as a stumbling block. The UK offer is to enable the TRNC to swallow this bitter pill by handing back (note that words are important!) less land than it otherwise would. In addition, some of the SBA land handed over could be used towards compensation of GCs who lost land which is now located in the TRNC.

I think that the UK is being magnanimous in this offer which should not be construed in any way as 'handing back' something that it has no legitimate right to retain if it so wished.

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Initium Sapientiae Timor Domini

David, do YOU agree with the UK's reasoning you outline above?
Do you agree that UK should be paying Cyprus rent for the SBAs?
Geoff.

Obviously you don't understand the geographic position Neil. Jersey is just 16 miles from the French mainland and surrounded by the French coast on 2 sides. Jersey is on the other hand over 100 miles from UK mainland. If you take the view that you want to give away the self determination of the people of Falklands to be British you have to accept that Jersey, Guernsey, Gibraltar, BVI and a large number of other British overseas territories have no rights to remain British either.

So here is one for your dinner table - Russia should give back Crimea and eastern Ukraine. The difference is my opinion is that the various Crown Dependencies are where they are due to historical reasons and treaties (sovereign bases included) whereas Russia recently annexed their new territory by force of arms.

Geoff, no the UK should not be paying rent, the Bases are "Sovereign", ownership is with the UK, which was agreed and ratified in the 1960 Independance agreement, there was never any expectation of rent. It was agreed if the UK wished to Hand over the SBA's in the Future then they would again become sovereign to the ROC. Why on earth you think any rent should be paid is beyond me, all the installations within he SBA's have been installed, are operated and maintained by the UK. It employs a number of both GC and TC workers, it carries out a huge amount of land management and conservation work and allows local farmers to farm the land. Which ever way you look at it a suitable arrangement for all.

You wouldn't think that way if you were a Cypriot.
Geoff.

The 1960 Treaty, treaty No 5476 of 12 December 1960 and its appendices, which are all in the public domain, has no reference either to the SBAs being leased to the UK or to any rent to be paid.
Over the period 1960 to 1965, the UK government agreed to pay RoC ‘by way of grant’ the sum of £12m ending on 31 March 1965. During the final 6 months of that period, and similarly before the end of each succeeding 5 year period, the UK agreed to review the grant aid in conjunction with the RoC to ‘determine the amount of financial aid to be provided’ to the RoC for the following 5 years. Appendix R also lists some additional grant aid of £1.34m for one-off infrastructure and other specified items, plus a loan if required for extension of the electricity supply on the island.
The payments were grants, that means not compulsory!!.
This makes sense since, if the SBAs per se had been leased or rented, then they could not have been termed ‘sovereign’ – that would be an oxymoron.

So wondering how much rent, Cyprus will want from Turkey then being occupied for the past uhmmm 40yrs!

Source:- Cyprus Mail 2013

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Dave
Moira And Dave

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”

You wouldn't think that way if you were a Cypriot.
Geoff.[/quote

Childish comment Geoff, I imagine the many hundreds if not thousands of Cypriots that benefit from the presence of the SBA's are quite content.

Geoff,

I totally agree with the UK reasoning. Cyprus is still strategically very important to the UK, but nowhere near as important as it used to be when we had an Empire, and needed Cyprus as a staging post for our Far East possessions and Middle East influence (Palestine under the British Mandate). Cyprus was also important when we needed to control the Suez Canal. However, we live in a different world now, and our Empire finally went when Kowloon/New Territories were handed back and Hong Kong was handed over (note the terminology!) to the PRC in 1997. The SBAs are essentially for military use only - that's why they come under the jurisdiction of the UK SoS for Defence rather than the Foreign Office. Militarily speaking, therefore, they are larger than is currently necessary, hence the 7,000 Cypriot civilians who are currently resident there farming the land. Handover of some of the surplus in order to facilitate an agreement is simply good statesmanship in my opinion.

I do not agree with rent being paid for the SBAs. Would you pay rent to the Cyprus Govt for land you owned in the RoC or to the TRNC for land you legitimately owned there? The SBAs are sovereign British Overseas Territory. There are some people who simply do not understand this concept and would have us cede the Falklands to Argentina, Gibraltar to Spain and the SBAs to Cyprus. That then begs the question - who should we give Bermuda to? Or the British Virgin Islands? What about St Helena, Ascension Island and Tristan da Cunha in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, or British Antarctic Territory or South Georgia and South Sadwich Islands?

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Initium Sapientiae Timor Domini